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Fr.Michael · Guest

Blessings Everyone!

Is any of you familiar with the western rite orthodox parishes? There a good few western orthodox parishes that have been established recently. It was formerly recognized by the canonical council of Bishops for the Orthodox Church in America(OCA).

Pretty close · Newbie Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 5

Yes it's basically a modified Anglican Rite.
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Pax ET Bonum

jodudan · Guest

Fr Michael,
While the Antiochian's permitted a modified Book of Common prayer rite, it also appears the old catholics were on track, excepting the filioque and the words of institution, if i'm not mistaken. The Gallican or French rite is also legitimate as a western liturgical, and orthodox, expression of worship; but i find the number of 'western rite' churches very rare, and seldom advertise their uniqueness....................Joe

Father Chad M. Brown · Guest

Fr. Michael!

Greetings in the name of our Lord!

I believe I am wrong, however I am told many Western Orthodox priests and churches were part or once part of the Byzantine Church.

I am not familiar with them or the practices to be able to say much.

God's blessings!

Father Chad M. Brown

theabbot · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: Thr\e Eastern Rite

Dear Father

I currently attend an Eastern Church called the Malkite Greek Catholic church. And it followes a tridiction going back to the year 250 A.D.
It is very similar to thr tridictional mass of the Roman Catholic church but differs in some was They use Icons instead of statues in there church. And the Liturgy is quite different but all the precepts of the Laten Rite is there. I was woundering if this type of Liturgy is permisiable with in the our Church I like doing this mass. on ocasions to Celibrate Mass. in the Eastern Catholic style and show the beauty of both the Eastern And western Rites.

Thank you
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May God bless all that hold to the Faith and serve Christ well.

Yours In Christ The King

Deacon Walter Wildes Jr

Father Chad M. Brown · Guest

Mr. Wildes,

Please forgive me as I am not sure if you are clergy or not. I can not give you a direct honest answer to your questions because I do not usually follow anything other than Novus Ordo, and the Tridentine Masses. However since you brought up a good topic, I must however, direct you to our wonderful Bishop Queen who can (and I am very sure)give you proper answer and advice if that particular liturgical rite is approved.

Since there are many liturgical rites out there that makes many of us in the church scratch our heads wondering what they are. I often question many of those rites because I am not familiar with them. Some of them in my opinion is a bit far fetched.

You also mentioned that the Eastern Church doesn't use the Statues but instead used Icons. From what I understand, these are approved in our Church, provided that they are valid icons, and are used for such purposes as they are intended for. A small parish I was assigned to near Tampa Florida didn't like the icons, but the rectory was full of them! I like the icons personally and find them beautiful to look at. To each his own taste I guess.

Our wonderful and gracious bishops spend many hours (sometimes doing this many times during the year) pouring over all the rites and from what I am told they have attended many churches who do perform those rites to make sure they are valid and correct for the Church to accept. This goes for parishes, Churches, and clergy before they are accepted into the Diocese or National Church. They too must follow the same rules and guidlines as set down by the Church including our Canon Laws.

I also must caution that there are many clergy who come up with their own liturgical rite, I personally think it is wrong that they do it, and most of the rites they have performed are NOT recognized by any catholic group.

When we join the Church as clergy, or even during our discernment to the called life, our good Bishops often ask what form of rites have we and do we perform. The reason for this is to make sure that the rites being performed is valid, and that it will not mock, hurt, mutiliate, or create a scandal of/to the Blessed Sacrament and the works of the Church.

We must always be respectful and use each rite with great care that it does not voliate what the Church's true mission is. No rite is allowed to be performed within any parish, diocese, or by any clergy unless it has been properly approved by the Ordinary. The Ordinary has his own responsiblity to see to it that each rite is performed properly and that each clergyman is doing such tasks with great care.

Another thing, clergy is NOT allowed to change, make additions, or modifications to any rites without the Ordinary Bishop's permission. Same goes for parishes wishing to change or add a rite to their church for others to attend. For example, a church some time back that I was assigned to (long before I became a priest or deacon), wanted to change the liturgy of the Mass. This small parish was a Novus Ordo parish, and the parish had hoped to attract the people in the area who was predominately pentacostal and other religious churches to join us. The bishops at that time felt it was not a good idea. Therefore it was denied.

Now that I droned on long enough, my strongest suggestion is to contact Bishop Queen through his email (bpandre@comcast.net) and put in a formal letter of request to use the particular rite. Carbon copies should also be sent the Archbishop Metropolitan as well. Bear in mind, they are often busy, and I assure you that they will get back to you as soon as they can. I personally do not believe that the rite you wish to use is not going to be a problem, but to be on the safe side, we should seek counsel of the wise bishops. Smile

I hope to hear from you soon, and thank you for writing!

Yours in Christ,

Father Chad M. Brown, SCR
St.Michael's Ministries
Clearwater Florida

theabbot · Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject:

Thank you very much father for your reply. And as and answer to your question as being clergy I am currently applying to become a Preist within the church and hope to be approved And I will contact the Bishops on this matter

Thank you God Bless
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May God bless all that hold to the Faith and serve Christ well.

Yours In Christ The King

Deacon Walter Wildes Jr

Father Chad M. Brown · Guest

Well Mr. Wildes, then I shall call you Brother Wildes until the Bishops tell me otherwise. This was a name I was given when I was discerning my call to the priesthood and while studying for the diaconate.

I hope to hear from you more often about your calling, and your journey to the priesthood. To tell you the truth, I went through my journey often very alone. The day I was ordained to the diaconate, not one family member was there, except a few people from the parish. When Archbishop Gubala ordained me only my sister and her husband was there. The journey to the priesthood is sometimes a lonely journey, and we are called to often take the journey by our Lord for purposes only known to Him. However rest assured, when you are feeling alone in your journey, it is the clergy and the people within the Church that are beside you through those journeys.

Please do keep in touch and know I will have you in my prayers as always.

Yours in Christ,

Father Brown

anglican123 · Priest Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Posts: 4 Location: Dallas,Texas

[quote="Fr.Michael"]Blessings Everyone!

Is any of you familiar with the western rite orthodox parishes? There a good few western orthodox parishes that have been established recently. It was formerly recognized by the canonical council of Bishops for the Orthodox Church in America(OCA).[/quote

Greetings in Christ!

The Western Rite is very much alive in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese. Having accepted in to their ranks sveral years ago the Evangelical Orthodox Church. (Former Campus Crusaders) Who made the journey to Orthodoxy. As of late mew priest and parishes have enter the Aniochian Vicariate because of the Episcopal situation. There are several using the Tikon Rite (Episcopal) and the Gregory Rite (Roman pre vatican II). You can find it to mbe as though you had entered a Roman Catholic Church of Decades past. ALL rites used are approved by Orthodoxy.

Pax

Father Gerald
[/list]

Steve · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Greetings Reverend Fathers and Brother Walter,

I am also a seminarian subdeacon with the Diocese of Minnisota and the Upper Midwest.

While there is certainly an active component of the Antiochian Archdiocese which worships according to the western rite, I wonder how vibrant it is as a movement within the larger eastern orthodox community. My understanding is that this is seen internally as more of a concession they are allowing in order to facilitate a new parish joining the church, however there is some pressure for these parishes to become eastern after a time... perhaps some of our more erudite members could comment on this attitude within the Antiochian Archdiocese particularly. I don't see the western rite being celebrated or encouraged in any significant way... ??

In Christ,

Steven
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Pax!

Dcn. Steven

jodudan · Newbie Joined: 11 Mar 2007 Posts: 8

Dear Steven,
I came into the Antiochian church in 1987, from Roman Catholicism; this was the same period of time that the evangelicals were streaming into the church. However, it was a bit later that the Antiochians permitted the so -called 'Tikon' rite - basically the 1928 book of common prayer with orthodox rhetorical adjustments - as a concession, as you say, to bring in whole parishes. It proved to be a questionable move, and in my opinion an un-wise one. Some of these parishes are nothing more than enclaves for Anglicans seeking refuge without any serious integration of orthodoxy; i'm not passing judgment on them mind you; but dropping the 'filioque' while maintaining a liturgy crafted by a reformer, whose intent was to displace transubstantiation with a 'memorial' hardly constitutes orthodoxy. I think the 'mind set' of (eastern) orthodoxy requires some years of transition for any of us westerners, accustomed to abreviated liturgies, contemporary music, and other novel changes. The orthodox church, i believe, would be better served for western rite parishes by utilizing pre-reformation liturgies; but thats an opinion. I do not think the current western rite is vibrant enough to sustain growth, or 'orthodox' enough to grow members in the orthodox faith. I do know that certain ROCOR churches employ the sarum mass with orthodox adjustments; i do not know what their growth rate is though...................pax christi, joseph

Steve · Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:33 am Post subject:

Dear Joseph,

I agree absolutely that the western rite would be better served by pre-reformation liturgies. Tridentine (St. Gregory) has existed well before the reformation and indeed before the schism if considering the east/west position. Of course resurrecting or 'rediscovering' the other ancient liturgies is also an excellent approach in comparison to modifying a newer liturgy to fit modern understanding of theology. I suspect you would agree that the best and most honest examples of the divine liturgy have evolved organically within the body of Christ and have indeed never been 'created' in such a fashion. (I personally like St. Gregory although I have a great deal of respect for the work of Fr. Aiden of the Milan Synod)

Using an ancient western liturgy in a western church such as ours is not such a big deal. However it is at odds with certain factions of the eastern orthodox church to whom it would indeed seem peculiar... and it is to a degree. I think it is a cultural oddity when considering the ancient church however completely understandable within the context of post-schism orthodoxy; especially considering the example of the west post V2. I think the effort within the orthodox jurisdictions would be better served by calling it the orthodox western rite, rather than the western orthodox rite... the first being truly what we are all seeking in both the eastern and western churches.
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Pax!

Dcn. Steven

jodudan · Newbie Joined: 11 Mar 2007 Posts: 8

Dear subdeacon Steven,
Your notion of addressing the appropriate liturgy as an 'orthodox western rite' rather than a western orthodox rite makes much sense; on the surface it seems trivial, but is in fact, what ICAN strives with the liturgy of St.Gregory. There is another orthodox jurisdiction besides the Milan synod that blends the liturgy of St. Gregory with segments of prayer and chants from the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom; the result is a nice flow of prayer/expression of belief that would better serve western converts to orthodoxy than putting a 'patch' on a misleading protestant service.
I believe as orthodox catholics it is our responsibility to hand down the traditions the church fathers presented to us; that does not mean cultural adaptations cannot be made. Rather, we in the west do not have to re-invent byzantium to become orthodox; instead we can employ an orthodox western rite........joseph